Electowiki talk:The caucus: Difference between revisions

From electowiki
Content added Content deleted
VisualWikitext
(→‎2022: archived #2021 comments made on Project talk:The caucus, and suggesting that we just use Project:Community portal instead.)
 
(66 intermediate revisions by 7 users not shown)
Line 2: Line 2:
'''To start a new discussion, click the "Add topic" link at the top of this page.'''
'''To start a new discussion, click the "Add topic" link at the top of this page.'''


Archives:
== Goals ==
* [[Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2005]] - discussion archives for 2005
In the spirit of [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BeginWithTheEndInMind beginning with the end in mind], it behooves us to have measureable goals.
* [[Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2008]] - discussion archives for 2008
* [[Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2013]] - discussion archives for 2013
* [[Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2018]] - discussion archives for 2018
* [[Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2019]] - discussion archives for 2019
* [[Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2020]] - discussion archives for 2020
* [[Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2021]] - where the archives for 2021 will be


The discussions below were ''started'' on the year that they are listed under. The years are not yet in reverse chronological order, so the best place to start a new conversation is in the [[#2021]] section below.
Suggested by [[User:Wegerje|Wegerje]] 17:54, 25 Mar 2005 (PST)
*Become the first page to appear in various Google searches.
*Become the source for links in the blogosphere (Often replacing [http://www.electionmethods.org/ Election Methods.org], no offense Russ)
*Providing from page one a clear and inviting path for those seeking:
**First time information about electoral methods and why and when some may be better than others
**Experts looking for well crafted information and in depth information on electoral knowledge


== Design ==
== 2005 ==
See [[Electowiki talk:The caucus/Archive 2005]]


== 2008 ==
The design is a work-in-progress. I have added the logo and background images from the main Electorama page. I will continue to update the look-and-feel of the site's default skin to match Electorama, but I'm not a CSS or design wizard. [[User:DanKeshet|DanKeshet]] 14:36, 26 Jan 2005 (PST)


See [[Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2008]]
== Announcements ==


== 2013 ==
Once this has been announced on the election-methods mailing list and Electorama, I think we should give a chance for the Electorama community to shape it before opening it for wider discussion. We can open it for wider discussion by posting to the appropriate Wikimedia places (Sites that use Wikipedia content; sites that use MediaWiki, etc.), as well as the appropriate voting places. [[User:DanKeshet|DanKeshet]] 14:36, 26 Jan 2005 (PST)
See [[Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2013]]


== Logo and theme ==
== 2018 ==
See [[Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2018]]


== 2019 ==
'''FWIW & IMHO''' - (orginal comment concerning the logo and name deleted. Glad to see it's fluid and fun-loving!) See post in [[Project:logo]] [[User:Wegerje|Wegerje]] 11:12, 31 Jan 2005 (PST) and [[User:Wegerje|Wegerje]] 06:10, 17 Mar 2005 (PST)


See [[Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2019]]
:Great to see you here, Jeff! The logo was copied from electorama.com. I don't really care much about logos one way or another, but if you can do better, why don't you upload it and post it at [[Project:logo]] and if people like it, I can upload it onto the server directly. [[User:DanKeshet|DanKeshet]] 11:30, 31 Jan 2005 (PST)


== 2020 ==
:Regarding the name: that's precisely the reason I use these "Project" namespace links. So that we can change the name of that namespace without too much trouble. With Rob's permission, we could change the title to simply: Electorama.


See [[Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2020]]
::Feel free to call this the Electorama Wiki or any other name. I'd caution against getting too wrapped up in gravitas, though. We're going to be at this a very long time, so we might as well have some fun along the way. For what it's worth [http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.misc/browse_frm/thread/f80b26ea8a5eb75a/3e36bcd744d73a9f#3e36bcd744d73a9f this isn't the first group with grave concerns about the gravitas of their logo].


== 2021 ==
::The goal behind naming the main Electorama site was to avoid going down the same rathole that most electoral reform pages go down. They either use the old red, white, and blue cliche, or some other textbook metaphor for serious stuff. The problem is that these sites often pronounce how boring and ponderous they will be before someone ever gets a good read. I specifically wanted Electorama to be accessible, and chose the theme accordingly.


See [[Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2021]]
::So, this Wiki doesn't necessarily have to use the same theme as the main Electorama site. What's more, if there's a better theme for the main Electorama site, I'm happy to adopt it there, too. -- [[User:RobLa|RobLa]] 22:28, 1 Feb 2005 (PST)


== Content contradictions ==
== 2022 ==


[[User:RobLa]] believes he wants to deprecate [[Electowiki talk:The caucus]] and use [[Electowiki:Community portal]] instead.
Research thrives in lots of content - the kitchen sink theory - whereas activist "propaganda" thrives in less content - the less is more theory. It will behoove us to craft short, concise, clear activist pages that may point to the dense research pages as needed, but only point and never get bogged down with. [[User:Wegerje|Wegerje]] 11:41, 31 Jan 2005 (PST)


:I'm not very worried about this until or unless it becomes a problem, but a custom namespace could always distinguish fact from editorial. [[User:DanKeshet|DanKeshet]] 14:57, 31 Jan 2005 (PST)


[[Category:Electowiki caucus|*]]
== Our "Village Pump"? ==

We should probably have some sort of "Village Pump" type page here. Naming this is always traditionally different on a per Wiki basis, based on the flavor of the Wiki. My proposal would be for "[[Project:Smoke-filled room]]" or perhaps "[[Project:The caucus]]", but regardless, this page should probably be reserved for discussion of the [[Main Page]]. -- [[User:RobLa|RobLa]] 16:02, 6 Feb 2005 (PST)

:I've been bold and done it. [[User:DanKeshet|DanKeshet]] 16:50, 9 Feb 2005 (PST)

== Problems with software ==

:I've run into two problems:

#Math isn't working. This is pretty big. The math software requires ocaml v.3.0.6; our provider offers 3.0.4. We can either bug our provider or compile the new version ourselves. As it would be much easier to bug the provider, and take up considerably less space, I prefer that.
#<s>Search isn't working. I'm going to look into this.</s> Search wasn't working because of a tiny bug in the rewrite rules. Fixed and it now seems to work. [[User:DanKeshet|DanKeshet]] 17:20, 9 Feb 2005 (PST)

== Categories ==

The first order of business I've been working on is eliminating all the excessive internal links that make sense in the Wikipedia context, but not here. After that, I'd like to make some more and better categories. Ideas: [[:Category:Ballot type]], [[:Category:Single-winner voting systems]], [[:Category:Multi-winner voting systems]], [[:Category:Condorcet method]]. [[User:DanKeshet|DanKeshet]] 14:55, 13 Feb 2005 (PST)

:I have done some of this. What I now hope to do is copy over the remainder of the articles from Wikipedia that I didn't get in the first batch. Also, I'd like to present some new examples that involve important Condorcet cycles, and use them in the articles on Condorcet methods. All Condorcet methods work the same on the Tennesee example, so using it is boring. [[User:DanKeshet|DanKeshet]] 15:04, 14 Feb 2005 (PST)

I agree that the Tennesee example is boring! Ideally, examples on each method page should be specifically designed to show particular features of that method. [[User:James Green-Armytage|James Green-Armytage]] 00:11, 19 May 2005 (PDT)

== Advocacy/Propaganda development? ==

What do people think of using this space to hone our propaganda? Here's examples of material I would like to put up:

* [http://www.eskimo.com/~robla/politics/condorcet-explain.html A Case For Condorcet's Method] - this was a piece I wrote in 1996, which I still think holds up ok, but could probably use some work.
* [http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/2/17/23347/8051 Campaign Finance Reform: A Red Herring] - a piece I wrote in 2002 when McCain-Feingold was about to pass.

This is the area that gets harder to manage in a wiki without clear ettiquette, which is why I hesitate to use a wiki for this type of material. Still, I think it would be cool to collaboratively edit advocacy pieces. Thoughts? -- [[User:RobLa|RobLa]] 20:58, 11 Apr 2005 (PDT)

:Personally, I'm all for it. The etiquette I'd advocate for would be:
:*"Friendly" edits (ones which agree with the points being made) to the page, "unfriendly" ones to the talk page
:*However, clear factual errors can be corrected or noted in-place, even if it weakens the argument. (Be charitable in your interpretations of terms before deciding something's a clear factual error.) [[User:Homunq|Homunq]] 02:51, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

:: @[[User:Homunq]] @[[User:RobLa]] I think this makes sense. But are there then "neutral" articles and "advocacy" articles? And how are they distinguished? Category? Namespace?

:: I want to put a bunch of my arguments from reddit on here, so I can link to them instead of repeating myself. Maybe I'll put them in userspace for now. [[User:Psephomancy|Psephomancy]] ([[User talk:Psephomancy|talk]]) 01:35, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

== Difference between this and wikipedia? ==

A question: How should the electowiki site differ from wikipedia's "voting theory" category? How do we prevent wasted effort in editing the two pages separately? In what circumstances is it okay to paste wikipedia text into electowiki and vice versa?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Voting_theory

[[User:James Green-Armytage|James Green-Armytage]] 00:03, 19 May 2005 (PDT)

:One difference is that electowiki has a point of view. see [[Project:Policy|Policy]].

:[[User:Augustin|Augustin]] 18 Aug 2005 ([http://www.masquilier.org Alternative voting phpBB MOD])
::We're also more specialized. However, I would say certain articles could be copied to wikipedia; for instance [[Robert's Rules of Order]] could appear on Wikipedia as [[Voting methods in Robert's Rules of Order]] or something similar. [[User:69.171.107.31|69.171.107.31]] 19:13, 6 November 2006 (PST)
There's no sense in making edits here to major voting system articles here that came from Wikipedia. Lock pages like [[single transferable vote]] from editing after adding a template referring editors to the Wikipedia article if they want to make changes. Copy the Wikipedia STV page here every x days so our version of the article stays current. Redirect our STV talk page to the Wikipedia talk page. [[User:24.154.8.81|24.154.8.81]] 06:47, 7 November 2006 (PST)


Obviously this is an old discussion, but my point of view is that purely encyclopedic content that can go on Wikipedia should go on Wikipedia, where it will be seen and edited by many more people. Maybe include a quick summary of it here, but otherwise don't duplicate effort in multiple places.

Content that isn't appropriate for Wikipedia belongs here, such as original research, advocacy, things that are not "notable" or cannot be reliably sourced, etc. So:

* Biographical information about Condorcet: Wikipedia
* Discussion about what the Condorcet criteria means: Wikipedia
* List of which systems meet which criteria: Both?
* Description of a new voting system that hasn't been used in the real world: ElectoWiki
* Explanation of why system X is better than system Y: ElectoWiki
* Analysis of real-world elections and who would have won under different voting systems: ElectoWiki
* Results of every real-world United States Senate election: Wikipedia
* Results of some minor party's experiments with IRNR: ElectoWiki
* Detailed analysis of Wikimedia's Board elections: ElectoWiki :D

[[User:Psephomancy|Psephomancy]] ([[User talk:Psephomancy|talk]]) 02:25, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

==Citing references==
Is there a way to cite references analogously to how it's done on Wikipedia using <nowiki><ref>, {{cite web}}</nowiki>, etc.? I am copying a page I created there over to here, because it is about to get deleted from Wikipedia. See [[delegable proxy]]. Much of that information may get refactored into other articles, as I see there may be some overlap. [[User:Justin Bailey|Justin Bailey]] 16:06, 25 February 2008 (PST)

: There is now! (10 years later.) [[User:Psephomancy|Psephomancy]] ([[User talk:Psephomancy|talk]]) 01:39, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

==Major delegable proxy project==
Hello, I am currently mulling over some ideas for coordinating and facilitating more effective delegable proxy activism. Many people have come up with this idea independently and started websites about it, but there doesn't seem to be an single unified integration of all the available information into one place on the web.

I want to start two parallel (but intertwining) projects. The first is basically evisaged as a book that would integrate some of the most important research, ideas, etc. on delegable proxy in order to comprise the definitive work on delegable proxy. Depending on how much is out there, it could be a short book, but we'll see when we get there.

The other project will probably take the form of a wiki, and its purpose would be to gather the activists together under one roof, where they could have freedom to do their own thing (e.g. start WikiProjects and sub-WikiProjects on specific subject areas and ideas within the field of DP) while also sharing resources and having mechanisms for coordinating activity.

I'm trying to figure out, should be this implemented as part of a larger project (e.g. Electorama) or as a separate project, on another site? Is it intertwined with other election methods-related subjects to the point where it would be better to keep it all together on one wiki? I'm only aware of a few overlaps, e.g. Green-Armytage mentioned the possibility of using STV to pare down proposals in a DP system to a manageable workload.

Anyway, rather than post something extensive here, I put some more detailed musings on this topic on my user page. Feel free to contact me if you're interested in collaborating on this. Thanks, [[User:Justin Bailey|Justin Bailey]] 16:06, 25 February 2008 (PST)


== Site stuff ==

Hi everyone, I'm the sysadmin for this site. I recently have done some upgrading and spam fighting, which unfortunately didn't play out the way I was hoping. Mea culpa. Simple thinko in my configuration changes this weekend, combined with a lack of testing. Before that, it was a "routine" upgrade gone wrong. Next time, I'll post something here, so that you can at least see what's happening.

I'm still reworking the configuration to make things more sustainable, with most of the heavy work this weekend. More later. -- [[User:RobLa|RobLa]] ([[User talk:RobLa|talk]]) 20:26, 11 June 2013 (PDT)

:More futzing today. I doing some things to make performance better, and I might reenable QuestyCaptcha (had it before the upgrade). -- [[User:RobLa|RobLa]] ([[User talk:RobLa|talk]]) 13:23, 16 June 2013 (PDT)

== Cleaning up categories ==

There are many different variants of the same category names.

[[User:Homunq]]'s definitions:

<blockquote>A note on terminology: “Electoral system” means all the election rules of a given country, including voter and candidate eligibility, elections for different offices, campaign rules, etc. “Voting method” is the formal mathematical part of that; the algorithm that determines what information must go on each ballot and how that information is aggregated to choose a winner. I’ve avoided the term “voting system” because it’s ambiguous; it could refer to either of the above, or to the specific machines used for casting ballots.</blockquote>

https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Categories/en#Redirecting_a_category says:

<blockquote>Like normal wiki pages, category pages can be redirected to other normal or category pages. However, this is not recommended, as pages categorized in redirected categories do not get categorized in the target category (bugzilla:3311). Some Wikimedia sites use a "category redirect" template to mark redirected categories, allowing manual or automated cleanup of pages categorized there.</blockquote>

Wikipedia style says

<blockquote>categories are almost always given plural titles and many templates are as well.</blockquote>

So I'll re-categorize each page under "voting methods" and delete "voting systems" categories. [[User:Psephomancy|Psephomancy]] ([[User talk:Psephomancy|talk]]) 03:39, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

== StructuredDiscussions ==

Should we use the [[mw:Extension:StructuredDiscussions|StructuredDiscussions]] extension for Talk pages? This wiki uses it, for reference: https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page

[[User:Psephomancy|Psephomancy]] ([[User talk:Psephomancy|talk]]) 02:45, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 08:02, 3 March 2022

To start a new discussion, click the "Add topic" link at the top of this page.

Archives:

The discussions below were started on the year that they are listed under. The years are not yet in reverse chronological order, so the best place to start a new conversation is in the #2021 section below.

2005

See Electowiki talk:The caucus/Archive 2005

2008

See Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2008

2013

See Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2013

2018

See Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2018

2019

See Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2019

2020

See Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2020

2021

See Electowiki_talk:The_caucus/Archive 2021

2022

User:RobLa believes he wants to deprecate Electowiki talk:The caucus and use Electowiki:Community portal instead.

Retrieved from "https://electowiki.org/wiki/Electowiki_talk:The_caucus?oldid=15110"